Saturday, September 29, 2007

God's will

I had a dream last night that both saddened and encouraged me.
I was in a huge school, (learning) and it took forever to get from one place to another (searching). We were in the cafeteria mostly (being Fed) and a young woman walked by. She was "unclean" (check your Bibles if you don't know what I mean) and other students were reviled by her for that reason and for other reasons--pointing fingers, saying mean things. I was half following her and thinking, "Why is she out here in this state of being, right now?!?" I couldn't muster up being disgusted by her, though, because she was dressed in white. White covered her, but there was still flesh showing. She stopped suddenly and turned around to me and looked at me with the most beautiful crystal-clear blue eyes. She had tears in her eyes. She said to me, "I'm not good enough for Him, am I?"
I stopped and stared at her. Why was she asking me?? A scripture verse went through my head, over and over again.
That was it. I woke up. My heart broke for her, for feeling that way.
But she was clothed in white, though, which is Christ's coverage.
I felt much better! Most dream interpts would say that each character is the dreamer, but I know that when I remember these kinds of dreams, they are spiritual in nature, and He is trying to tell me something.
Don't we pick and choose, and point fingers at others, either outwardly or inwardly? Don't we try to decide who is good enough for Him, what their actions are and if they are 'saved'?
These are the words from the verse that went through my mind in the dream:
". . our Saviour God, Who wills all man be saved and come into realization of truth" 1 Timothy 2:4 CLNT
When He wills something, it happens.


Kansas Bob said...

"When He wills something, it happens."

Guess I just don't think it is that simple Karen because it only seems to work for things that He wills to happen 'later'. Anything you can think of that He wills 'now' ... or is it only about later?

karen said...

Whatever He wills to happen happening.
"He wills all man be saved and come into realization of Truth" means, to me, all men will be saved. According to His time, not ours.

Kansas Bob said...

Well, I looked 1 Timothy 2:4 up and sometimes 'will' is 'wants' or 'desires' in other translations

Either way, I guess I understand that you think that God wills all to salvation after they die ... my question is why doesn't He will to them to salvation/truth before they die? Like you said His will is happening now.

karen said...

His will in THIS matter is not happening now, apparently, or we'd all be worshiping Him. However, His will Will happen, in HIS time, not ours.

The Greek "thelo":
"to will, have in mind, intend"
Even if it's translated "desires" I'm guessing that you may think that just because God desires something it might not happen?

I'm guessing that whatever God wants, God gets. ;-)
Why don't all believe? Romans 12:3 says that God gives a measure of faith to each. Phil. 1:29 says that God graciously grants people to believe.
God has each of us in a different place.
Galatians 2:16 says that we are justified by the faith of Christ. So, does HIS faith justify, or OURS? His faith buys salvation, and personsl faith GIVEN us causes us to realize it. It brings us into the "realization of the truth." 1 Tim 2:4
What truth? The truth that He died on the cross 2,000 years ago to save us.

I promised myself I wouldn't start this up again! ;-) I welcome your comments, Bob! I hope and pray for Ann right now.

karen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kansas Bob said...

I guess you and I simply see things a bit differently Karen.

I know many people who hold to different bible based 'will-of-God-truths' very dogmatically ... like it is always-Gods-will-to-heal ... it is Gods-will-that-you-have-money ... it-is-Gods-will-to-go-to-church ... etc. I guess I don't see life or God or His will in those black and white terms. It may be God's will to utlimately save everyone but I just don't see it in that dogmatic-black-and-white way ... I guess I am just not a fundamentalist anymore. As it is with God's will for healing, wealth and other things I am happy with His will regardless of what He does ... His will is His perogative.

karen said...

Are you callin' me a fundy? Nah. Hope not! ;-)
Well, we've known we see things differently on these things, KB, and we still respect each other and agree on the best thing: Jesus was born the Son of God, He was crucified, died, and rose after 3 days to save us!

Good for you...I'm not happy with His will at all times; I'm not healed, Ann's not healed; you're not healed. Well, maybe we're not CURED...but we are healed through Him.

karen said...

Oh...Where's the "God's will to heal. . to have money. . .to go to church" in the Bible?

Those are human thoughts and expressions. What I shared was from the Scriptures.

karen said...

All of my responses lately seem a little "short" I'm sorry--I don't mean them to be. I'm a tad cranky because of my pain level right now.

brian said...

Fascinating dream, Karen. I'm no dream interpreter. But, it is very interesting.


Kansas Bob said...

Din't mean to call you a fundamentalist but I do see a lot of dogmatism in the UR community. You are probably the only one I know in that community that is open to real dialog.

The Word of Faith movement is all about God's will to heal you and make you wealthy ... listening to Benny Hinn, Fred Price, Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, Joyce Meyers and more you get a subtle and not so subtle communication from the bible about those ideas.

It is all about seeing God and interpreting the Bible in a dogmatic black and white fashion. It is the idea that I have to be right and someone has to be wrong.

Maybe there is another way to dialog about the bible that isn't so confrontive but still challenging?

karen said...

First of all, I don't consider myself a Universalist. I agree with some things, and some not. I prefer to call myself...Karen!
Do you really think I'm looking at the Bible in b/w on this issue? Because I could say the same for your views, couldn't I? I don't know which of us is right. My dream was more than anything about human judging (a subject that I'm going through right now within a ministry).
I think we're capable of dialog without getting mad at each other, KB. I'm a little snarky and terse now, but not at you. Never at you. You're like, my brother. Well, not MY blood brother, because he's crankier than I. Anyway, you're the brother-in-Christ. . . . should we take the Bible? I'm interested in your thoughts. I think I know a bit, but if we don't take it at its word on salvation for everyone, how do we take it at its word on the believers only scriptures? Cuz there are scriptures that support both.

karen said...

Thanks, Brian. Is "interesting" your euphemism for "Karen is nuts?"
LOL!! :-D

Kansas Bob said...

Good point about not being a universalist Karen. I am sorry to put you on the defensive. Ditto your comments about brother/sister in Christ!! Probably better for me to stay away from those hellish topics :)

I don't think I can focus enough right now to really answer your question about how we should take the bible ... maybe I'll post about it sometime. If you are interested in other (non-literal) ways to look at the bible you might want to check out Julie's post and some others at her blogsite.

karen said...

My hat's off to you as always, Bob, for your open mindedness. . .the post that sprung up from Julie's post echoed many of my feelings about church.

Every church my hubby and I have gone to, we have been greeted by the staff folk, but forced to shake hands with the members at one point, and that's it.

I don't have to take the Bible literally, but getting down to the brass tacks of the translations and the Truth that is IN there (It's and AMAZING BOOK!) may be the only way to turn hearts. My take on the Bible? You may already know it. That there is Truth, history, but most of all, a chronological history of the love that God has for ALL of us; that He intends and WILLS salvation for everyone in the form of a gift from His one and only Son. The fact that we can go back and forth with scriptures and such shows that we are all, just a little bit, taking the Book literally. You wouldn't have questions about salvation of unbelievers if you hadn't gotten them from the Book. . .and that's okay.

Barbara (aka Layla) said...

Whoa! That dream was packed! I am glad you have a gift for interpreting dreams. I think God gives you special ones because he knows you will decipher them and find the meaning, whereas some of us get pretty obvious ones. I have to email you my latest, I am too embarrassed to write it here!

Robert said...

Thank you for sharing karen and ackowledging your crankiness and pain you are in :) you share your humanness so openly and make communication so much better how you share. I would love to see a place alot like Julie Unplugged where interpretation of Scripture can just be hashed out till we exhaust ourselves and in a gracious manner no accept My view of burn you heretic type attitudes lol I think seeing where scripture is ment literally where symbolically and where poetically is one of THE most interesting topics for all to pursue. He did gives us brains to think and reason with and not emptiness to just be automated robots mindlessly accepting one particular way of seeing things careful anytime you drink koolaid!!!! muhahahhaha

Don R said...

To your post, AMEN...To your comments to all, well spoken...
To God, thank you for allowing Karen's and my path to cross. You are constantly a blessing to me.

Lori said...

Hi Karen

Thanks for stopping by my blog. You awoke me from a sleep.

I have been busy with life and work.

Thank God for the Fathers eyes. He sees as we truly are naked but yet cleansed in the blood.

My favorite cartoon to this date is "Lion King" I love it when Simba is lost and the monkey (typology of the Holy Spirit)takes him over to the water and reminds him of who he is "REMEMBER WHO YOU ARE" and the reflection in the water is the Father. ... Hallelujah.

So... the good news is to remind people of who they are by what Jesus has done.

Remind a man what is good about him because he already knows what is wrong.

Have a great day as always and thank you from awakening me from my slumber...

Love yah

karen said...

Also, Bob...Word of Faith...Hinn and all of that...::Shudder:::
!! :-D

Barbara...I emailed you!'re sweet and funny! Thanks for the encouragement.
Don, thanks...and God did a good thing, yep.
Lori...stay awake, sister! You have bunches to say!!! I've really missed your stuff. Your link remains on my blog...forever!!!

Kansas Bob said...

Just an afterthought Karen ... any ideas about heavenly rewards ... does faith factor into rewards, if there be any?

karen said...

I'm not understanding your question, Bob...can you elaborate?

Kansas Bob said...

I was wondering about what your thinkings might be on passages that allude to 'reward in heaven' like:

"Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you." (Matthew 5:12)

Do you think that God rewards people differently in heaven?

karen said...

No, Bob. I don't think that God rewards people differently in heaven.
Now, my friend, you have me in a difficult position! You've quoted scripture. Are you taking that literally or not? :-)

Kansas Bob said...

I was reading something Audrey Cole wrote over at and she said in commenting on 1Cor 3:13-15:

"That first word is a superlative. It really means each and every, ALL, not some. So, those whose "works" survive the fire, receive the reward, the rest are that same fire. In other words, though all are saved, some get rewarded and some don't."

While I may or may not agree with some of her assessment, Audrey's thoughts about rewards makes sense to me ... how about you?

karen said...

I think that verse is also linked to 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 in which Paul outlines the order of salvation. She has a good take on it, in my humble opinion.

I'll go over and see if I can read more.
I'm kind of wondering, though, why would anyone think, or hope that we would get more rewards? Is Jesus our Capital One? ;-)

Kansas Bob said...

"I'm kind of wondering, though, why would anyone think, or hope that we would get more rewards?

I'll answer the question with a question:

Why do parents reward their children?

karen said...

I don't reward one child more than the other.

Kansas Bob said...

But you do reward them based on what they do, right? If not please give me some examples. Thx!

karen said...

Actually, no, Bob. We've never rewarded for good behavior. It's expected. They get a "good job" or "We're proud."
We give gifts at birthdays and Christmas--equal value to both, and really not much. If they want something else they have to work for it (for someone else) if they don't have the funds.
If the boys do wrong, they are disciplined. However, because they mighty make a grievous error and because I love them, I choose not to throw them into a place of fiery torment. ;-) They do their time, all's forgiven.
Didn't Jesus tell a parable about workers and we all think it's unfair because the one toiled and his reward is the same as the one who didn't toil?
I'll finish with my question:
Do you think you deserve greater rewards in heaven than others, and why?

karen said...

...and what would these rewards be? What are they, anyway?

Kansas Bob said...

If you acknowledge when they do something good by saying something to them then, I think, that is a form of a reward ... most atta-boys are a type of a reward ... rewards are not all about gifts or getting special priviledges.

I am curious though since you mentioned parental discipline ... isn't that a reverse form of rewarding? You are rewarding for behavior but not in a good way.

I have no idea what rewards look like in heaven but I think that it is a topic that is mentioned in the NT. Like all things post-death I am happy with whatever Gods plans and does. If Jesus says to me "well done" it will be enough for me. If he says the same to Hitler that is also okay with me.

karen said...

So, KB, can you answer my query? How do we take the Bible? Literally, not literally? I have a quote on my page from Bushnell. I kind of go with that.
One person's "literal" view, though, will be different than another. Do you think God planned it that way?

Kansas Bob said...

I guess you are going with my response on rewards Karen :)

About your query, I agree with the Bushnell quote. I like something that our friend Brian said in responding to a similar query:

"I don't have a formula I apply or a computer program I can run to determine what to take literally and what not to take literally. Mostly, I apply common sense. I don't think Jesus meant for us to literally cut off our hands or pluck out our eyes (and apparently most Christians agree with me since I know we ALL have sins we struggle with and I don't know a single person who has applied that particular saying to their life). Just as when someone says "He's out in left field on that one.", I know they don't mean the guy is literally standing in a field, common sense and an understanding of the culture language helps. Since I don't speak Hebrew and didn't live in the First Century, I sometimes (often) have to rely on scholars to help me put things into context.

So, first I use common sense, the urging of the Holy Spirit and/or a feel for whether something should be taken literally or not. Secondly, I go to scholars if it's a particular subject that seems to have contradictory passages (for example "hell" or homosexuality or the role of women). I am not saying in this that nothing in the Bible is to be taken literally. I am saying not everything is to be taken literally (as some pretend to do but no one REALLY does)."

Back to rewards, do we take them literally or some other way? Maybe we can apply Brian's thoughts on a case-by-cse basis?

Enjoying the dialog ... hope I haven't taken you off course too much :)

karen said...

My life is made up of "off the course" Bob...just like yours!

Reverse reward? That's kinda a conflict in terms, right? My "reward" system is no doubt nothing like God's. He's perfect.

Rewards. I don't take them literally. Being with God. That's all the reward I need. :::thinking and dreaming about it:::ahhhhhhhh.

The quirks of language and culture certainly play into our interpretation of the scriptures. Geez...we're getting lots of bias from the translators...and most translations are from an original translation--the KJV. Can you imagine if I translated the originals? HOHO!! :) Wouldn't you like to see that? :-)

Now, you're going to be dismayed with me. . .the very interpretation of the word "eon" or "eternity" in the makes a difference which way it is meant to you and to me.
Here's my system:
I usually have about 10 books in front of me when I read the Bible. I go from one to the other, then I read Bart Ehrman and that throws me a curve, then I get frustrated and shove everything back onto the shelves and go play Mah Jong.

I'm sure your way is better. :-D

I like Brian's thoughts, they are true, except I wish I'd known that earlier. Anyone know how to re-attach limbs and eyes? :-)