UPDATE: Missy! Don't apologize, please. I apologize that I made you feel like you had to apologize! I LOVED what you said! There is no condemnation here! It was not "childish" it was "childlike" and that's what we have to be in order to not let our "adult" (HA) selves get in the way of asking questions. KB...I'm not in the Universalist corner. I really don't want to be called any denomination or anything. I'm just asking. And, your statements and questions are good and wonderful, so no sanctimonious stuff here, okay? :-D It seems like I made you feel that way, and I apologize. I have a flippant way about me sometimes, especially when I'm treading on dangerous ground!
Being called a heretic scares me, actually.It hits me in the "you don't know anything about the Bible, Karen!"spot.
Your point is good...Let's discuss: Does the Bible teach the concept of eternal torment for non-believers?
If something else comes up in the interim, that's okay, too.
What I was going for was.....if we disagree on doctine, but agree that we are all in love with our Jesus, will we consider each other heretics? Frankly, the thought of losing any of you would be heartbreaking to me.
Here are some more "heresy" statements. Looks like Missy is itchin' for a fight! ;-) Or for some chocolate....me, too! CP....I think what Don is saying is that a lot of the stuff that is claimed as right and true today in general Christian circles may not have begun that way. What is orthodox and accepted now may have been "heretical" at the time. KB and CP both quote the Apostles' Creed. Now, I agree with everything in the Creed. The problem is, the Creed is not in the Bible.
....and now, note:
"I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting."
It doesn't say....I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins for myself and for those who believe, the resurrection of the body for myself and for those who believe, and the life everlasting for myself and for those who believe.
So, I'm looking at this Creed from a whole 'nother angle. I believe in His forgiveness of sins. Period.
Now, if I'm thinking that everyone will be forgiven because I love my Saviour and I believe that He will eventually bring all to Him, does that make me a heretic? If I'm not in line with the general population of Christians who feel that only a certain segment of society (believers) will be granted entrance into the Kingdom--will I be kicked out of Christendom?
Don also makes a point about the translations of the Bible. I believe the word of the Bible is, indeed, infallible. That's saying something, because I know a lot of the history of how the books of the Bible got there. I hope that you'll investigate this as well, if you haven't. I know that God certainly had His hand in this process because man certainly stuck his foot into it. After investigating the "women" stuff in the Book and seeing how the translations were mucked up, I can only assume that other aspects might have been messed with as well. It's very enlightening to see the words (as close as we have them, since we only have copies of copies of original manuscripts) as they are. Taking those words and finding the meaning of them through a Greek dictionary, or a Strong's or whatever....and letting the Holy Spirit lead you in the meaning. It's a feeling that wells up warm and loving in your gut, I promise you.....you're reading disjointed words...and in supernatural moment you know what the Holy Spirit is saying. Awesome.
Anyway, the word "eternity" is the simplest example. It is aion or aionios in the Greek, but it really translates to "eon." I don't have the little doo-dads that accent the words...sorry. Anyway, I looked it up, and it's true. No, I'm not a Greek scholar, but there are bunches out there with brains to pick. And, I have. Anyway, so, when Jesus talks about fire and damnation for an eternity, it's stated an "eon" or set period of time. I emailed the author of a new NT translation and asked her why she has it translated as eternity in the body of a scripture verse, but footnoted that it can mean "for a set period of time." There's kinda a difference in a set period of time and eternity. Either it's forever or it's not. Weeeelllll.....I didn't really get an answer on that. I got an interesting discussion about how one word can mean many things. Well, of course they can, but I want to know what the GREEK means in that precise spot! not what some translator made it say in our English. What I get from her response (in my humble opinion only) is that we are so entrenched in the hellfire mindset that we dare not stick our toes in any possible pool of all-encompassing forgiveness...even though we claim Jesus as the lover of us all.
More later. Remember....I'm just talking out loud here. Go ahead...throw something at me. Be nice. Let's see where it goes.
Don R,> many times the heresies became the orthodox in timeIt's hard to know what you mean by this. Almost everything that's ever been believed is currently believed by some denomination somewhere, so yes, this is true after a fashion, but only at the periphery of the faith. I can't think of any contradiction of the Apostles' Creed that's ever been accepted as orthodoxy anywhere, any time.
I think heresy and Hershey are synonymous - mmm mmm, good!If someone tells me someone else is a heretic, I immediately want to hear what they are teaching. Is that wrong?I just think its rather silly to put a label on someone that basically says, "I'm right and you're wrong" - especially on things that are really just our best guesses.In my experience, it's not usually the heretic who splits the church, he/she is the one who wants to talk about something no one in leadership does. It's the leadership who label him/her and those who agree as heretics and kick them out.Maybe there are some situations this is a required action for, but not any I have witnessed.Does any of this make me a heretic? That would be cool...
Kansas Bob said...
I like what CP said about the Apostle's Creed. Here it is:I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen. I accept it. Anyone take exception to it?